Will Power
Being a physical therapy entrepreneur can be unbelievably challenging at times. From patient care, to running the businesses, to balancing a family, it’s no wonder many entrepreneurs feel overwhelmed and burned out. Each Tuesday, join Will Humphreys, a retired private practice owner and medical entrepreneur, as he introduces game-changing leadership concepts and interviews other successful leaders in healthcare. If you want to start, scale, or sell your outpatient physical therapy business, this is for you. Together not only can we increase our income, impact and freedom, we can build the largest network of healthcare leaders in the world at the Will Power Podcast.
Will Power
Understanding the True Value of Physical Therapy with Brandon Seigel
Understanding the True Value of Physical Therapy with Brandon Seigel
In this episode, Brandon Seigel, a leader in private practice management, dives into the often-overlooked value of physical therapy. We explore how therapists undervaluing their services impacts career growth and patient outcomes, and why recognizing the balance between qualitative and quantitative value is essential for success in the healthcare field.
Key Takeaways:
- Learn how understanding and communicating your value can transform your practice and career.
- Examine how financial literacy and strategic pricing can overcome gaps in healthcare education.
- Discover how higher fees can lead to better client relationships and a more sustainable practice.
- Gain insights on aligning work-life balance preferences with fair compensation and avoiding burnout.
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rock stars. Welcome to the willpower podcast. Our very special guest is brandon siegel. He's a best-selling author, an internationally recognized private practice guru, and I want to validate that I don't just bring anyone on the show. These are people that I absolutely personally guarantee will provide you with maximum value. He he's the president of Wellness Works Management Partners. He has 20 years of leadership experience, but what he's known for is leadership, and his niche is more in the pediatric space, but everything we're going to talk about is applicable to the entire healthcare field.
Speaker 1:Today's message is all about value, qualitative versus quantitative. Here's why this is important. The single greatest problem in our industry is that we don't occur to ourselves as doctors in our community and we don't charge what we're worth, which is why insurance companies take advantage of us, why it's hard to compensate our employees or for them to even make the money that they would want to make, because we're not about profitability. So he's gonna help you understand the difference, and I would have all of your team members listen to today's episode. It's a master class on how to understand money and what you can do about it to start making more money and working less. Guys enjoy the show. So, brandon, do you believe that physical therapists understand their value?
Speaker 2:I don't believe that physical therapists understand how to define their value, and I think, as a result, what's happening is we're teaching therapists only how to create a qualitative value. We are not helping them discover the quantitative value, and I think that is. The mistake in our current education system is that we don't spend enough time in literally breaking down the equivalency between qualitative value and quantitative value. So therapists are going to come out saying I'm the best therapist, I am a manual therapist, I'm incredible, all this stuff and then when I say how much is that worth, they look like I have a gun, and so, literally, I think this is one of the biggest barriers, because how can I create a value proposition if I don't have a defined quantitative value that I put on myself?
Speaker 1:So clarify that please for people who are going qualitative, quantitative, what is that distinction?
Speaker 2:So qualitative means of value, the quality of care that I create, outcomes that you feel better after you've been with me. So I'm a great therapist because, qualitatively, will you're out of pain, you feel good, I've done my job. So you give yourself an A+. Quantitative means that you're able to put a financial number on the value of what you just gave. So, in your mind, will, if I were able to remove all pain from you for the next six months, what is the value of what you just received and how do you define that value?
Speaker 1:proposition, so that's like the money part of it. In other words, in terms of me, when you said that right now we're talking with me having recently injured my rotator cuff and so I have to go to a physical therapist, and as you were talking, I was thinking about what if someone said to me confidently oh I can get that completely better right in the next six weeks, but here's what you need to do. What number would I want or be willing to pay and I guarantee it's higher than most PTs would be willing to say?
Speaker 2:Well, and I think part of the problem is we don't know how to showcase enough results to allow someone to find that financial value. And so one of the best experiences I ever had full transparency is when my daughter was young. I took her to a physical therapist and an occupational therapist. It was both and they actually did an evaluation in front of us and then they did treatment and they were able to show, within a 90-minute process, a total change in function to say, buy into our program. So I paid probably $1,500 for the eval and I was like that's a lot, but let's see. And then they had me sold. I was like you can't put a number on what this is, because what you just showcased was not time, it was not action, it was results. And so if we're really as qualitatively good as we say we are, then why can't we financially value the value of what we're going to create for someone?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are the problems that come from us as an industry, not understanding how to quantitatively define our value.
Speaker 2:Well, and then you know so I told you this earlier, but I'm going to say it again for everyone is I went to a physical therapist today and private pay physical therapist. Now, kind of to give you some backstory I was referred to a pelvic floor physical therapist from my doctor but my wife, who's an occupational therapist, said no, no, no, no, no, not yet, you're not ready for that and you're going to hate biofeedback. She was like you're going to hate it, so you don't want that. And I'm like, okay. And she's like you're going to go to this physical therapist because everything in your body is so tight that it doesn't matter what a pelvic floor therapist does. You need this first in order for your muscles and whatnot.
Speaker 2:And I'm not a therapist, I'm a business guy. But I'm like okay, yes, yes, honey, whatever you want, I show up to this therapist's office and he's quality-wise, he's good. I liked what he had to do, but the experience had room for opportunity and the biggest thing that I think with him was he is a really good clinician, his ability to take a good clinical approach and turn it into a value of experience where I walk away like, oh my God, I just spent the best investment of the day. This like made my day and it really he had the clinical skills to do it. He didn't know how to put it into that next gear. And what was sad was when we got to the checkout period where he's like I'm like how much do I owe you? Again, he'd already sent paperwork, I had already signed it, everything, and he said you know, this is how much it costs. But since you and I stopped him, I said look, I'm going to be a business coach right now. Don't cheapen your value. If that's your price for everyone else, don't treat me any different. And granted, he knew I'm like in the industry and whatever I go, hold your own buddy. Like you earned it, you own it.
Speaker 2:So it comes back to this idea of whether you're a practice owner or a therapist or whatever, you need to be able to own that value. And at the end of the day, we also know when someone's not worth their value. And so sometimes people also overplay their card. And so I bring this up because on the recruitment side, I always let them show me their cards before I show them. I'm a big believer in that and a lot of. So I want to be clear. I set a magnet when I recruit that says this is what the job looks like, this is what the pay looks like, all those different things.
Speaker 2:But once they apply, they have to go through what I call the analysis of fit component. And when we are analyzing fit, it starts with what does the fuel that they require and where is that destination going to be? Based on that fuel, meaning physical therapist, how much they want to make, what does it? Are they doing 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 40 minute visits? Do they need aids? Do they not? Are they in a clinic? Are they in the home? All these different factors that we look at. And how hard do they want to work? What does lifestyle look like for them? And that allows us to measure this.
Speaker 2:But when someone comes to you Will and says you know, I'm looking for and I have this happen all the time, I'm looking for over six figures and I'm looking to do see about 25 patients a week and I'm like 25 minimum, 25 goal, because that's a whole different thing. I want to be clear 25 delivered means that we're scheduling 30 to 35, just so that we that's our minimum 25. Seen to you might be, I only want 25 scheduled. Well, now you've overplayed your hand, and so it comes down to. It's really easy to quickly identify when a therapist has no way to financially value themselves, and to me, this is the first thing we should learn in life. This is what we should be training our kids for. It doesn't matter whether you're a physical therapist, you're a landscaper, you're a pool man, a baseball coach or whatever. You have to be able to know how to value yourself based on ROI, based on the benefit that you're delivering. And so I bring it up, because there are baseball coaches making more than physical therapists right now.
Speaker 1:And that's the whole problem we're facing. We're realizing this discrepancy that exists in our industry. The way it looks more directly for students is where they come out of school with a student loan debt, because the universities know how to value what they do. You know, and there's a whole debate on that, but like they understand that, hey, listen, for a doctorate level degree you're going to have to pay $130,000 in money. Students are taking that on and then they're going into a profession that doesn't know how to value itself. And, ironically, the educational institutions are perpetuating to the PTs themselves how to undervalue themselves individually. So then you have these individuals and an institution to where people are leaving because they're in a position where they don't understand what they're worth.
Speaker 1:And to your point, if we knew what we were worth as PTs, we would know how to charge appropriately for our patients. We would understand as owners, how to recruit better because we know what we're worth. But this whole idea of understanding quantitatively what we're worth is driving the majority of all of our problems. And that's why insurance companies are taking advantage is because, you know, we look at them as the big bad wolf, and I still think they kind of are. But at the end of the day, they're the ones who are taking advantage of just what we're willing to not understand about ourselves. Which is what we should be charging in terms of visits, what we should be collecting in terms of cash.
Speaker 2:Well, and in my opinion, at the end of the day, the value of ourself is based on, in my opinion, two drivers. One is the qualitative ROI, meaning how much is that quality worth to you? So I want to get leather in a car. So it's going to cost me this much more because of quality of life. Like what's that qualitative value?
Speaker 2:So why did I go to a private pay person when my doctor referred me to, being very transparent, a franchise PT clinic? That was a mill. I could have gone through insurance, I could have had a $10 copay and I opted to go full cash. And you're like well, you can afford it. I go. No, it's how I value it. I'm not going to Italy, I'm not going on vacation, I'm not doing what I'm doing, I'm valuing it. So one is that component of I put a qualitative ROI on the care I'm going to get. But then the second variable, which is kind of understood as affordability Can they afford what that qualitative ROI is? And what's happening is our industry is attracting more and more people that say my goal is to serve those who are underserved and cannot afford quality services.
Speaker 2:But the problem is when someone I give it, I go back to that book, the Giving Tree. What happens at the end of the day? The tree dies Like sorry if you haven't read it, but bottom line is the tree dies. So I bring it to everyone to say don't devalue yourself where your tree is going to die. It's not your problem to solve their crisis. And I come back to whose problem is it to solve when they have big student loans? Is it your problem? Well, if all the therapists you hire have 60, 100, $150,000 student debt, did you tell them to get that debt? No, no, no.
Speaker 2:At the end of the day, the two things I always say is would you buy a home with a variable interest rate that goes up or down every year? And I bring that up because that's what we're doing with our salaries and our employees is we hire someone who accepts our job and sometimes within three months, six months, 12 months, whatever they're like, oh, I need more money, my cost of living went up, or this or that. I'm like you need to know what they value themselves at five years from now. You need to know what they value themselves at five years from now. You need to budget for where that balloon payment is going to be, because it's going to catch you. And I guess one of the things kind of tying back to value I'm a big believer in is I'm like whatever I can pay you five years from now, I can pay you today. So would you rather me give you the value of today for today, or would you rather me slow play you so that you get your value today, five years from now?
Speaker 1:Right, I love that. Well, and I think the big thing here is that when we are undervaluing ourselves, I don't think we understand that we are hurting the patients, the industry and ourselves. Because here's the thing I think most PTs are thinking when they're devaluing themselves, First of all, I don't even think they're aware that they're doing it, but when they are, they justify it at least I used to to be like well, the reason I'm not, you know, charging more for my services or whatever, is because I'm not about the money. That's a common phrase in our industry. I'm not driven by money. However, there's a big difference between not being motivated by money and not understanding its impact in my world, like that giving tree, If I'm not, it's just a fuel. It's not good or bad, inherently right. So when PTs oftentimes undervalue their services, they think they're doing something charitable. So explain the difference, Brandon, in that regard. When is charity appropriate versus what we're talking about, which is paying what is or charging what we are worth to our clients?
Speaker 2:So my viewpoint on this is no margin, no mission, plain and simple. And in a world where everything's evolving, if we prioritize what I'm going to call patients, employees, other shareholders and not our business algorithm, we will not sustain what is to come. That is just a fact. And so the reason why consolidation is happening is not because people are getting great valuation and out In the last three years. The reason why consolidation is happening is because people with money are seeing that other people can't do a good enough job, and so how many people do you know? When they get acquired by a private equity company within three years, that practice looks totally different than when it was acquired Everyone, Okay.
Speaker 2:So my viewpoint is if you really don't want it to get to that level, prioritize your margin, and whatever you don't need you can give away after the fact. So sustain what you have, get your 15, 20, whatever your margin goal is, and then you can go and give back, and then you can say I'm going to donate to this cause, and they do. Scholarships in which those scholarships go to create accessibility. But the number one polarizing viewpoint right now is am I here to create qualitative outcomes or am I here to create accessibility to outcomes, but they contradict each other. Qualitative outcomes and accessibility of outcomes contradict because qualitative costs more than accessibility.
Speaker 1:Yes, it does, and I think that they think they're being kind and generous when they're making it accessible to all. But then how often do they struggle with patient compliance and attendance?
Speaker 2:Well and this is my other statement is if you don't care about money, then why are you starting your own business? So, even like this therapist the other day, he said to me he's like, look, honestly, my number one priority is just to give great care. And I got into this to give great care. I'm like, well, you couldn't have given good care at your previous employership. And he's like, well, no, I was giving great care. There I go. What's the difference? Like, well, I want to make more money. I'm like, so, own it. And I say that in this way of we prioritize baseball contracts, movie stars, etc. Do you think the Rock gives anything with the fact that he's making hundreds of millions of dollars to literally show up and say do you know what the Rock is smelling?
Speaker 2:or whatever his slogan is, and I say it this way, I don't understand why we can't get behind the idea that the cancer doctor should get a million dollars, the physical therapist should get, like why You're saving lives. Fortunately, I've never had one of my children in the NICU, but if I went to a parent and said how much is it worth this NICU to save your child, they would say I will leverage every penny in my name to save my child. Somehow we've lost that value of what it represents, because I think we have this entitlement that it should just be there. But where in the world did we get this idea that it's universally and I'm not talking like political, I'm not talking, you know, universal healthcare and all that. What I'm talking is is, at the end of the day, we think that the best quality care should come for free and I don't understand that mindset. What other industry has that?
Speaker 1:free and I don't understand that mindset. What other industry has that? Yeah, it's true, because in healthcare we as a profession struggle with money overall, but no one liked the PTs and OTs. The PT, ots, slps, in particular, are in a place where we are so confused about it that probably what some people rock stars that are listening heard what you just said, brandon. Some of them probably started to feel uneasy about this idea of taking a family with a kid in the NICU and recognizing that they'd be willing to pay that money because the healthcare provider that we've been trained to be might hear that like taking advantage.
Speaker 1:And what I think is important for the listeners and rock stars to understand is that there is a point of which you are taking advantage and that's not the providers. I say this all the time, brandon. I believe that every PT, ot and SLP should make as much money as they want, meaning they could make lots of money, become incredibly wealthy, because it's only with the profitability that you can do things to turn it into charity, like you can't give away what you don't have and when you devalue your practice. We're not talking about overcharging, but what we're recognizing is we're so undercharged that charging a fair exchange feels like we're ripping people off because of the way we've been programmed.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's interesting because if, from my experience and you may have different experience when I've gone to places that have socialized medicine like Canada the people actually value the private pay so much greater. It's this mindset of like, hey, no, I'm ready to pay whatever it takes to get what I need, but here it's like, well, why isn't my insurance covering it? And part of that is the premiums cost. So I do want to get back to your statement that I do agree that two of the variables or we'll say ingredients, that's a better word that are plaguing our industry right now are, plain and simple, our health insurance system, because they're making buckets and buckets and buckets and buckets and buckets of money and there's no regulation. It's kind of like that's an issue, and I think it's also the idea that I pay $10,000 a year and get $100,000 of healthcare benefits doesn't make sense, comes back to that growth. So the whole idea of insurance they're betting on not giving you services is my point.
Speaker 2:The second thing that is plaguing our system is our college graduate programs. These programs are not preparing people for the real world. They're preparing people enough to have a licensure and enough to have enough debt to last a lifetime. And it's amazing because I remember what the unit cost of school was when I went to undergrad and what it is now. It's like a thousand percent more. I'm not exactly it's insane. It's insane and I don't understand. There's a point in which I'm not exactly. It's insane, it's insane and and I don't, I don't understand. There's a point in which the profession's not worth the cost of the degree.
Speaker 1:I agree, and it's crazy that out my school.
Speaker 2:It's also a school that sells an OTPT degree. That makes no sense to me why someone would get both degrees because I can't get double the pay Like what's my benefit? I just studied, now I'm an OT and a DPT Like and I'm sorry if you've bought into that program but financially you're not worth more to me as an employer.
Speaker 1:Just plain and simple, same with any alphabet of the suit behind your name. Like there's this thought process of if I keep developing my qualitative value, somehow it's going to make sense quantitatively back on the back end. But you and I both know the quantitative value comes from knowing what you're worth at any level, so you can continue to add qualitative value. But if you're never going to develop your ability to understand your quantitative value, it doesn't matter. As an employer, we're still getting paid the same because you're still under billing. That's the problem. We have a broken healthcare system combined with these educational components. I agree with you a thousand percent on that.
Speaker 1:But here's what's funny when PT, ots and SLPs are undercharging for their services, they think they're helping the patient. Do you know? I know Brandon already knows this, but Rockstars do you know who is benefiting from that? The insurance companies. So here's you tell me who's overcharging right?
Speaker 1:Last year, unitedhealthcare, in the physical therapy practices and OT practices I've consulted, reimbursed anywhere between $50 to $70 a visit across the country. Last year, unitedhealthcare made $284 billion of profit. So when you are waving away co-pays and helping the patient lower their fee because you're making it more accessible, what you're doing is giving them more profits and you're allowing the patient and you, as the pt and the owner practice, to bear that burden. So this might be a great message for pt owners to give to their, their pts and ots and slps and go hey, listen, listen to this, this podcast, because at the end of the day, I don't think we're aware of that connection. That's what universities, if universities educated in that Brandon, how cool would that be. If universities are like, let's talk about how to develop you quantitatively more valuable, not just qualitatively.
Speaker 2:I think fiscal literacy should be mandatory. I think understanding how to define your value and even just the project of I want you to pick your most prized possession qualitatively, that's the most meaningful to you. How would you quantitatively put that? Could you put a quantitative price on that? And I do think it's just.
Speaker 2:It's baffling to me that PTs don't see that when they cheapen the quantitative value, they don't increase the qualitative value, they actually reduce it. And I give this example of Will and I are going to go out tonight and we're going to get a steak and we go to that steakhouse and the steakhouse says, hey, it's normally $59.95 for this steak, but we're giving it to you for $9.99 tonight. It's a special deal, Will, if we decide to go in a week later and they're like, oh, it's $59.99, aren't you like, well, that was a $9.99 stake. Now you're telling me it's $59.99?. Like, that doesn't make sense. Like why am I paying five times the value? Well, that was a discount. People don't understand discounts as value. They understand discounts as representative of what that qualitative value is to you. Wow.
Speaker 1:I agree with that. By the way, alex Ramosi always says he never discounts his price. The price is the price, because the second you discount something, that becomes the understanding of what the value is. I have a coaching program that I won't promote here, but I had a coach tell me I was working with practice owners and he told me when I was launching this. He said hey, you need to charge, let's start out at $2,000 for six months. And to me that number felt insanely large. And he goes no, no, I'm objectively assessing what I believe the exchange is. He goes you're undervaluing it at $2,000, but it is your first group. He goes we're actually going to raise that significantly after you get some social proof. So I started at $2,000. After six months he comes back to me. He goes now you're going to charge $8,500 for the same course. And I thought he was insane.
Speaker 1:And this is the PT in me. This is the educational system I came through. That was even though I owned a practice. This was how this showed up for me in terms of quantitative valuation. So when I started to charge more Brandon, you know what happened because you know this process the quality of my clients got better. It was easier to sell. It wasn't harder to sell. It was actually easier to sell because when someone sees that you're pricing it high, there's an emotional experience for people who only see that $59 steak as like well, it must be insanely delicious, right. And so, again, there's a lot of people out in the industry who are figuring this out in the B2B space, where there's coaches helping PT practice owners who are really good at pricing it high and bringing the sizzle, but their qualitative value isn't actually matching up to their quantitative, but they're actually doing pretty good because of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's interesting you say this because I had an experience about a year ago and there's someone in the industry that charged, there's a couple of people that charged $50,000 for their programs and my wife was like, why don't you do that? I'm like I can never sell anything at a $50,000 package. She's like why? I'm like? Because I'm call it spiritual. I'm spiritually not at a place where I put that value on myself, where I would pay myself for that. And I come back to you have to be willing to buy what you're selling, and that's so important. Willing to buy what you're selling, and that's so important.
Speaker 2:So I can't tell you how many therapists I find they want these huge salaries when they're employees and then when they become employers, they don't want to pay the salaries that they wanted. I'm like you were there, that's what you wanted. Yeah, but I was different. I'm like there's no difference, it's the same thing. They don't know what I went through. I go, that's not their life journey. But you have to recognize that you've been there and I think that the what I call pain in the butt employees that become practice owners, they have the most challenging time because when they start to see other pain in the butt. Therapists are like how dare they? I'm like you were the same.
Speaker 1:They just see. They understand it like when you own a practice you get the money piece so fast. I would say that most owners quickly start understanding. It's the school of hard knocks that teaches them. This is what the quantitative impact is for you as the owner and when you're an employee, especially when you come from our educational systems that we go through brandon. I think there's this idea of like well, the owner must be killing it financially. They have no idea that if that owner was paid per hour for what they put into their business, they make way less than the people that work for them in most cases.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's why, for me, 95% of what I coach and work on is comp structures, and it comes down to full transparency. It comes down to we want to build a KPI list that they understand. So I say what is the total people expense for that employee, not just the wages, that's the EMR, that's all these variables that go up and down, that create affordability or inaffordability related to that employee, and how much revenue do they get of what they generate? And you'd be surprised. And so I'm like, hey, you get 40% of the revenue you generate. Like, oh, that sounds great. And then they're like, oh, I'm only getting $58 from UHC. I'm like, yeah, now you know the problem.
Speaker 1:You know. So this is important, rockstars, for people to hear this, because Brandon is a clinical expert, which I don't use that term loosely. There's many businesses and coaching groups that are popping up that do not, in my opinion, match that, and here's why Experts have either done it themselves or have shown that they can do it for others in a very reproducible way, and oftentimes oversell themselves because they understand this. This is where, like, the coin is flipped, where sometimes these um, quote-unquote experts are quantitatively showing up as experts but qualitatively aren't, and it's like people don't know the difference because they don't know what they don't know. So when I say that brandon is an expert, I mean he is an expert.
Speaker 1:How do you help your clients establish this? Because you went through, like the kpi piece and you mentioned this, this whole thing about compensation structures. But, as an expert, how do you help your clients establish this? Because you went through the KPI piece and you mentioned this whole thing about compensation structures. But can you walk us through just some of your things that you help people do? I have a lot of things I do so I'm not going to bore you.
Speaker 2:You can Google me. But the bottom line is, I would say a majority of people come to me when they're having trouble with their comp structure, and it all stems from several things. One is they don't understand their numbers, so the first thing we have to do is figure out their business algorithm. Their business algorithm is all of the data that makes up their output, if that makes sense. And so, from a quantitative standpoint, what are your expenses versus income? How do you break it down and how do you build an algorithm so that you're consistently creating the same pizza pie day in and day out? Okay, Once we know that everything fits that, and then, when I communicate it, I go to Will and I go Will. You're incredible. You're worth 10X of what the industry standard is.
Speaker 2:The reality is, we're a vehicle of change and in order for us to get to a destination, we have to have the right fuel that we can afford. Right now we're in insurance practice. This is our affordability. It's not based on value. It's not how I feel about you Now. If you value yourself higher than what I'm offering, I totally understand that, and that's why I do a fit assessment to make sure your needs, wants and desires fully align, for not just today, but for the next five years.
Speaker 2:And sometimes we will say that the quantitative logistics and needs of comp benefits everything are not your driving force, and that's what we have to find out. What are the drivers and at what point are you going to feel full in gear? And I bring this up because I've full-time therapists that have been working for me for over 20 years, and 20 years of retention is not easy and people say, oh, you must pay the most. I go no, I don't, Because what I know is every day you can get a greater dollar somewhere else. That's just the reality. And so what I recognize is that there's enough needs, wants and desires being exceeded because I'm an under-promised, over-delivered kind of guy that the consistency, reliability and value they see in my organization is greater than just a quantitative comp structure Isn't that interesting Because that's where we can balance the quantitative and qualitative as owners, with the people that we're hiring.
Speaker 1:But it starts with understanding the bare bones. Numbers is what you're saying, right. Where you go in there and you understand their business algorithm is how you put it, where you're going through the numbers, the nuts and bolts of what they've established, what their profit margins are, and then you layer that with these combinations of quantitative and qualitative numbers. And to your point, with these combinations of quantitative and qualitative numbers, and to your point, like when companies are only focusing on the quantitative, is when they find themselves in a race to the bottom Because they are oh, they're paying $75,000, I'm going to pay $80,000. Oh, they're paying $80,000, I'm paying $85,000, versus understanding that value goes beyond money. And so it's an interesting problem because it seems almost flip-flop from what we were talking about initially with PTs. Right, pts are so focused on the qualitative but they don't know how to quantify it. But as PT owners, they're so focused on that quantitative amount that they're not focusing on their qualitative exchange.
Speaker 2:I will tell you, though there's a trend that I've seen in the last probably year and a half. That's changing with new grads, and the change is I would rather make less and have a 32-hour full-time job.
Speaker 1:I've actually seen that recently in the coaching call before this People were talking about, one guy said this and I'd never heard this before. He said 80% of his employees aren't full-time.
Speaker 2:So what's happening is different. People are defining full-time differently and I want to be clear In the past it was 40 hours of full-time, then it was 36, became a trend. Well, now we're starting to see this idea of like I'll show them hey, 40 hours a week, you get this. 32 hours a week, you get that. Which one do you want? They're like I want the 32. And so we're seeing that less people want to put in the 40 hours of time into a job today, which is so weird because, when you think about it, we have 168 hours in a week 168 hours and we're complaining about 40. It makes no sense to me, and no other industry I see as don't. Like, if you go work in the hospitality industry, do you think they're going to be like, oh, you get 32 hours a week? No, they're going to be like you're going to work 50. You're going to work whatever it takes.
Speaker 1:You're going to work weekends, holidays?
Speaker 2:And what if your favorite restaurant just shut down because they're like sorry, we've reached our 32 hours for the week? It's a little bizarre for me, but I think I'm programmed a little different.
Speaker 1:No, I'm the same way. I grew up in, actually, the hospitality industry. My dad owned a restaurant, so nights, early mornings, weekends, everything was on the table, pun intended to get working. And you look at the PTs and they're just in this place of I don't know. Culturally, I don't have a lot to say about it. What are your thoughts? Why that trend is bubbling up so much. So I'm going to tie it to our value piece.
Speaker 2:Okay, the people that are entering the workforce or in the workforce right now no longer have their bucket filled in the same capacity as they did 10, 15, 20 years ago by what they're doing. And I think, as media and things have changed and reality TV and this lifestyle of I want to travel and I want to see museums and I want to go on private jets and like things that we never saw 20 years ago, now people's, their whole value system has shifted and the value system is saying look, I don't want to just live to work, I want to work to live. And for me, being very transparent, I live to work. I love what I do. If you gave me all the money in the world, I would still work. I love it.
Speaker 2:It's like there's that cause and effect of being able to create change. I would go nuts if I just was on a golf course all day. Now I know there's not people like me, but I also was that guy that was busting tables at 15 years old. I grew up middle class, had everything I ever needed, what you would consider like rich Jewish kid, and I just was born with this grandfather that literally was like Brandon.
Speaker 2:Nothing is given to you in life, regardless of the fact that you're being raised a little bit spoiled, you're going to work and learn that, like product of like he was generation depression. So I literally was the only gringo kid busing tables at a restaurant and I remember five hours on my feet. I was tired and they're like bye, we're going to our next job. And it taught me that if I'm not able to grind and enjoy the grind, my life is going to be limited, and so the number one lesson I'm trying to teach my kids is to find one thing you can create and do for 60 hours a week and be fulfilled, because if you love what you do, there's nothing that someone can take away from you.
Speaker 1:I love that lesson and I relate to that. I think there is a mindset shift around entrepreneurship, but I do believe that anyone can develop that mindset. But it comes from understanding what they value. And I'm the very same way. I sold my practice. I'm not in a position where I have to work my 50 hours a week. I choose to out of passion. It's a passion drive for me and what I find is I love creating possibility with people to the point where, when I'm not doing that, I do like to relax from time to time. But it's like the key thing is to find something that you're so excited and passionate about that it never feels like work, and I love that.
Speaker 1:You said learn to love the grind, because I have found when I coach companies I'm sure you've experienced this but the company in New York that has the team that's producing like each therapist, is seeing like 80 visits a week or more. They're maybe, and sometimes equally or less burned out than the group in Alaska that's seeing less than 40 visits a week. So that tells the audience rock stars. As you're listening to this, think about that. Why are they burning out? Like it's because we keep choosing to talk about it, and it's like this message we keep beating as a drum, when, at the end of the day, back during the depression, people loved to have the blessing to grind to make money. So, yeah, I love that you explained that, because maybe what they're just valuing over the years is shifting around this like work to live versus live to work.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that the grind fuels adrenaline for those that really love it. So to me, that grind, it gives me an adrenaline. It's like, oh, let's go. And there's nothing more rewarding than leaving at the end of the day and knowing you've left it all on the table. You know like it. Just I put it all out there today and I'm not saying like, don't take breaks, don't I mean again 168 hours. I'm not telling you you need to do 100 of 168. But I'm also a guy that I'm like, if you can't live off six hours of sleep, like six hours is plenty, like I don't need more, like I'm happy you give me six, I can roll with that.
Speaker 1:So happy you give me six. I can roll with that. I need a little bit more, just for the audience. Who's going what? Because you are a bit of a superhuman, brandon, I know you well enough to know that his standard might feel a little impossible, because it is for most. But most people can do more than what they're able to do and love it. And if they could learn to love it, I guess it just depends on what they're being taught, because at the end of the day, if I work at a company where everyone's acting burned out, I'm going to be burned out, whether it's 40 or 80 visits a week.
Speaker 2:Totally, and I think it also comes down to when you're not working. Where does your mind go? And I think that's a really interesting thing. So, for me, when you listen to music or you listen to a book on tape or you listen to something, where does your mind go? What does it do? My mind is always creating. My mind is always like, oh my gosh, this would be so cool. Hey, have I. And literally like it's just part of this piece where it's like I want to take in the world, like have you ever been to a place that you've never seen before? You show up and you're just like, oh my God, I'm in magic. And so this idea that you have to be grinding all the time in your clinic I disagree with that and I believe there's a world where you can justify taking three days, bringing your whole team to a new environment once a year and getting them reset with inspiration, because the minute you turn something different in your mind, I feel like all your particles just shift. Is the way I look at it.
Speaker 1:It's true, Travel does that for people, and it doesn't have to be an exotic place. It can be somewhere just different and change. There's all these neuroscientists that are talking about brushing your teeth with the opposite hand or just doing things a little bit different, because it completely re-stimulates your brain to be more present and to grow and adapt. But at the end of the day, we're all creators and I love that piece of like. Where does our brains go when it's a positive place, a growth mindset, when we're not feeling like a victim or suppressed by the problems we face? Our brains organically create, and so that idea of like, leveraging that, leveraging that. But we can't going back to our concept of value. I just feel like, as people are listening, that I hope they understand that when they can step into their power and charge with their worth that it's profitability that unlocks possibility.
Speaker 2:My point on that just to piggyback on this value piece is no one should judge you based on the value you choose and you should not pick it because someone else tells you this is your value. Don't let others dictate your value. So even when I say the $50,000 thing, I'm envious that he sees his value as 50,000. I'm envious of it. At this point in my reality I can't value myself in that. Call it self-esteem, call it whatever.
Speaker 2:I'm an under-promise, over-deliver person and the idea of me creating $50,000 worth of value to someone is overwhelming to me. And when I say, if I'm creating what I call as an exchange of $50,000, for me it's like you better be able to create 85 to $150,000 of perceived value to justify that. So anyone that could do that, I actually envy them. So just because someone down the street is charging 225 and you're like that's ridiculous. You find your number. But don't get stuck where you're valuing yourself based on what's around and what's available. Value yourself based on what you're willing to fight for and what that tipping point is. And tipping point is everything value is a product of. When that tipping point comes, you're like I don't need it then.
Speaker 1:so my question to you, brandon, is what do you think pts, ots, should be charging? If they were cash pay, what is the range of money that you would say to challenge them in terms of value? I know it's going to be variable based on what they're doing, and all that because it's too hard to float through a single number for all things, but what would you say would be an interesting range for people who are listening to this to go? Yeah, this is what an expert thinks that we should be charging, cash pay-wise for a PT visit.
Speaker 2:So I'd rather put it into this perspective. I think that an optimum result is worth $225 per billable hour $225 per billable hour.
Speaker 2:cash not discounted for optimum results, meaning that, hey, if you said to me right now, in 16 visits I can get you 75% more functional than you are today, I'll drop $2.25 an hour for every visit. To get to that point, you got to be able to create an outcome. One of the issues is we're losing our value because we're believing in continuous care, which just means we keep treating until they discharge themselves. You have to have clear and defined value goals, not value-based based on like pay as little as you can for as much, but literally like what is this worth to you? So to me, to operate without pain is worth this, and I'm going to throw this out to the crowd.
Speaker 2:Me, to operate without pain is worth this, and I'm going to throw this out to the crowd. How much would you spend to ensure that you never have cancer in this lifetime? And I have a lot of money because I'm seeing it firsthand with family there is no dollar. So if you have a solution that truly changes the entire quality of life, why can't you value that at $225 an hour?
Speaker 1:I agree with you 100% and I bet and I know there are people who charge more because it is that was a very like fair. I don't even think that was, I don't think that was generous, I think that was conservative. In terms of what, again, it depends on the condition and what we're treating. If someone's coming with a mild sprain, who honestly could probably self-rehab, that might be different than someone who's coming in with chronic back pain and you're the expert that can help break through. But at the end of the day, as people are listening, here's the numbers on that. At what Brandon just said to make $100,000 a year if you were working for yourself with no overhead, if you're just like $100,000, that's eight and a half visits a week. So what if you did have some overhead? Great, Turn that to 10 and you're making six figures.
Speaker 1:Now, what if you were seeing 20 visits a week and charging that amount? How much? I mean, you're not even at one-on-one for an hour, which, by the way, pt's coming out of school at least. I don't know about OTs and SLPs, but PT's coming out of school or train that they have to do one-on-one for an hour, because anything less than that sucks, which blows my mind. I would go crazy with boredom at one-on-one for an hour, but if I was able to see 20 visits a week and make $200,000 a year profit, that means I'm in a place where I'm only working one-on-one for an hour, for 20 hours a week. It's insane. It's like everything starts to reverse. If we started to step into our power and charge a little bit more of what we're worth Well and I'm going to throw one other perspective out.
Speaker 2:The average family of four spends almost $7,000 for a vacation to Disney. Whoa, $7,000. And that's like that's that. So I come back to, like you go and you spend and all this stuff, and I look at it in this way Well, how many people average $50 or more for a check of food, whether it be family or whatnot? Like oh, like 1500, whatever? Like when a coffee is five to $7, how can we not justify 200? And I brought up the 225 because I'm an under-promised, over-deliver. I want that 225. I want you to come back and say you should charge 275. That's always my goal is you could have charged more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and people, if they started stepping into their value, their clients would show up because they're like obviously this guy Part of what you guys are hearing rock stars as your owners and as your PTs I'd have your PTs listen to today's episode is that the reason you're struggling with your patients and the reason they don't show up is because they don't perceive the value. One of the easiest ways we can help them understand and perceive our value is by charging what we're worth. This is assuming you can get the outcomes. If most of your patients are bringing you cookies, it's because you can get the outcome. So what if you could just start owning that and start charging what you're worth? It only would you get better, happier patients. Ironically, they're not gonna be upset that you're charging them more and you might be going.
Speaker 1:Well, what about the people who can't? Great, once you have profitability, you'll have enough money to know other ways to support those populations, but for now, showing what we're worth only helps the patient, you and the industry. And I love, brandon, that you're going into this. How can people get a hold of you, brandon? Because I think there's. I would say this you're one of those people I absolutely validate. What if a PT owner wants to work with you and understand more about what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:So easywellnessworksmpcom is one of my companies Also growthcodeconferencecom. I've got a conference coming up in January. Will's gonna be there and very excited. It's four days of learning. Everyone that has gone to this conference honestly they're like it's an experience like no other. It is technically geared for pediatric private practices, but 99% is applicable to anyone and the concept is just bringing people together with thought leaders, collaboration and honestly pushing your mind to the break. That is part of the growth code is how do I push you so hard that you're ready to just run through fire with me? And yeah, those are the ways to reach me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to validate the event. I'm so glad you brought it up because I was worried you wouldn't. That event that I get the pleasure of speaking at has been told to me by people across the industry that do not BS me that it is the single greatest event in the physical therapy industry and occupational industry and in the speech industry, and so I initially reached out to you just being like, hey man, how can I support it? Because I was deep down dreaming to speak at it. So the fact that I get to be a part of it is huge. So rock stars come visit Brandon and I at this event at the end of January. Can you give them the dates and the location?
Speaker 2:Yeah, january 30th to February 2nd. It's going to be in Miami Florida. Come on, literally, coral Gables, florida, beautiful From morning to night. We are in it to win it, and so growthcodeconferencecom.
Speaker 1:I'll put that in the show notes as well. Brandon, it's been such an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. I have to have you back sometime, Absolutely, Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to today's episode. As a thank you, I have a gift. In today's show notes. There's a link for you to join the stress-free PT newsletter. This is a comedy newsletter for anyone who works in healthcare and of course we're going to have comedy bits. We're going to have inspirational stories, leadership bits. It's going to be a weekly newsletter just to lighten your week, to help you do what you love with more passion. So click that link below and join that newsletter and we'll see you in our next episode.
