Eric Boles on Why holding people accountable is the most loving thing you can do as a leader

Eric Boles is a former NFL wide receiver turned executive coach, keynote speaker, and founder of The Game Changers Inc. In this episode, Will and Eric go deep on the real reason teams fail and it's not talent, motivation, or attitude. It's alignment, clarity, and the courage to have direct conversations.

In this episode you'll learn:

• What Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, and Jon Gruden taught Eric about running an elite organization
• Why most team problems are awareness problems, not attitude problems
• The difference between "what I want from you" and "what I want for you"  and why both matter
• How to set up "pre-success" instead of doing endless post-mortems
• Why withholding hard feedback is actually the selfish choice
• The 80/20 principle applied to relationships, leadership, and life
• How to use AI as a thought partner (not just a task automator)
• Why culture is dictated by what's tolerated, not by how happy everyone is

Connect with Eric:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-boles/
• Instagram: @ericboles_
• Facebook: @ericboles
• Company: https://thegamechangersinc.com/

Book mentioned:

• The 80/20 Principle by Richard Koch

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Transcript

Why This Conversation Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Rockstars, this is one of the most important episodes I've ever made. So, right out of the gate, please listen to this episode all the way through. And I'm asking you to share it, not because I want you to promote the show, but because this episode is one of the quintessential episodes on love, light, and leadership that I have ever had the privilege of having. My guest is Eric Bowles. He was the PPS keynote speaker this last year. He played in the NFL. He has evolved and grown into this leader of leaders. He has a company called the Game Changers Inc. where he does everything from high-level executive coaching and consulting down to keynote speaking. And what I love about Eric is that he is one of those few go-givers who just pours his heart and soul. This will be an entertaining episode. You'll just glow through the hour like it's nothing. But here's at the end of the day, you're going to leave feeling happier, more empowered, and you're going to give this to your leaders to listen to because this confronts the greatest problem and pain that we face in leadership, which is how do we hold people accountable and grow them and change the world? I kid you not, I'm not exaggerating in this introduction. Listen to it all the way through, share, and enjoy this show. I know I do.

From NFL Setback To Coaching

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Eric, I'm so excited to talk to you about so many things today. One of the things that have I've always wanted to ask you is how your experience in the NFL and then helping people in the NFL, because it wasn't, you weren't just a professional athlete and well rewarded. It was you've helped other people coach and develop themselves in the NFL. How did that experience prepare you for executive coaching? Like how has that leadership experience helped you build leaders in other domains like business?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Oh, great question, Will. I will tell you my NFL experience. I don't have the kind of story where I left the league being carried off on shoulders after winning a Super Bowl and I'm getting celebrated. My experience in the league was uh a great experience for me, but pretty painful in terms of if I had to define it as disappointing. Uh so I was only in the league in a few years, and but you know, I I got released. So I got cut. So, you know, and I always like to say that uh I had an NFL draft party when I got drafted, uh, and then my uh my getting cut party, there was a lot fewer people at it. Yeah. So anyhow, uh, but what the NFL did for me, um, I learned a ton uh uh in in multiple ways. One is uh I played for a couple of for a uh a couple good teams and I played for a pretty bad team, right? Uh but in terms of the the good team, my time in Green Bay was invaluable. And the reason it was was I got a chance to not only see how players play on the field, but I got a chance to watch an organization that was ran in a pretty amazing way. Wow. And um that was probably uh my the experience that had the most significant impact on me in terms of that transferred from that experience to the work I do today, right? Um and I can't say I it wasn't intentional. I wasn't 24 years old, you know, sitting there going, let me study, you know, the structure of how this organization is being ran. Right. That wasn't going on. But due to being hurt and and who our coaching staff was from Mike Homer was our head coach, Andy Reed was our tight end coach, John Gruden was our wide receiver. Those who know football know I'm mentioning some great coaches right now. Steve Mariucci was our quarterback coach, um, some of our assistants that were on the squad, the players from Brett Favre to Reggie White, all these great players, all that talent. But I was more amazed by Ron Wolfe, who was the general manager. He ran that. And it was such a well structured organization, how they took care of business. The organization of Mike Homer is an organizer, he's a teacher as well. So I got a chance to many people say he had a great uh uh football coach. Yes, football coach was the title, teacher was who he was, so he taught. And so that experience for me was priceless. It was only later that I discovered how much that prepared me for what I was gonna do next,

How Great Organizations Run

SPEAKER_00 4:20

but it was really an invaluable experience.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

It's interesting to think that in the NFL, because you I mean, I'm guessing every organization at that level has leadership well to some degree dialed in. And even within those realms, okay, that's actually useful because it sounds like even at that level, which is true for business too, right, Eric? Like you get businesses that are achieving some great things, and then when you get into it, you're like, How are they achieving this?

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

So, what were some of those key things from the Green Bay Packers that you were like, man, I really because you said they were great organizers. I got the sense they structured things cleanly and clearly.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

But there was almost like this emotional connection I heard you heard from you. What was it about you that affected you personally? Well, that was like, wow, this is leadership.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Well, I well, one of the things that had a tremendous impact uh on me was it was the first time I learned what second, third, fourth level consequence even meant. So follow this here. Most of my career, I got into football late after college. I went to a really small school. When I was drafted, I got drafted in the 11th round, right? They don't they don't have 12 rounds in the NFL anymore, right? So so I mean, my experience coming up, I was a wide receiver. You know, wide receivers can be known as pretty selfish, right? Yeah, we just worry about getting the ball, we're not worried about anything else. Uh, but my time there in Green Bay was fascinating. I still remember one specific play where uh I ran a route, I didn't get the ball, and I kind of jogged back, right? I didn't really run full speed, and I never forget being called to the head coach to Mike Holmgren. Uh, and you know, and he just said, Come here right now, and I got right to him. And he looked me in the face and he said, Run full speed every time. And it didn't, I didn't really understand it because it was like a a a route that it was I was like just kind of get out of the way. Like, who who I'm probably not getting the ball, but when we got in the film room, it was the first time I really understood. And now keep in mind, I'm in the NFL. So you would think I would uh know this already, right? Uh, but my my talent got me in the NFL, not my football IQ. So so what ended up happening is by watching film, he helped me understand and where they broke it down is what happens when I don't go full speed and how it negatively impacts every other position or every other route that was being ran and how it led to this and how it led to that. So for me, understanding how everything connects was a great precursor for me, a great uh, you know, an education for me. So then when I would get into organizations, I discovered that in a lot of organizations, it's not a problem of motivation, it's a problem of lack of awareness. Some people just don't know how important their role is. If they do it right, how it impacts everything else. That's never talked about. So people get so caught up in just what their assignment is that they don't understand there's a second, third, fourth level consequence. Those were some of the aha's that I would only value because of football. And I had to have the experience of doing it wrong, coached on it, called out on it, to understand how significant it is. And so it's those kind of things that I'm so grateful for the experience because we would watch, we spent far more time in the film room and in the classroom than we even did on the field. So learning the game and the nuance of the game were big. I was in the in I I made it to the NFL because I'm 6'3.5, 225 pounds wide receiver back in the day. Like there wasn't a lot of those. So my talent got me there. But unfortunately, once I got there, I realized just how much I didn't understand, not about football, but around how teams work, structures work, process works, habits work. A lot of that was learned, especially in my time at Green Bay.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Gosh, man, Rockstars, listen to what Eric said. I, as Eric was talking, I was thinking Rockstars about private practice clinics. And owners don't even know, Eric, that uh over a third of rejections from insurance companies when we go to get our money for the work that's done happen because of

Second And Third Order Consequences

SPEAKER_01 8:40

small, easy errors at the front desk intake form. And the front desk people that we hire, usually, you know, private practice owners are usually in the space of like, I'm just gonna hire someone with a good personality, and they don't understand the importance, like you said, of being off-field training on the why it matters and how it creates second and even like third level consequences because of these elements. And man, the loss of money, the loss of, you know, again, it's not about the money, but without the money, we can't serve the purpose. And so if we can't have that element, so Rockstars, as you're hearing this, what are the what are those positions on the field of your team that you maybe could do a better job of connecting the why and how it connects to all these other processes? And if you don't know, go learn, right? Like as you learned, Eric, like when that coach sat you with sat you down, was like, hey, run full speed every time, and then he teaches everyone why it opened your understanding and expansion. I'm sure you felt like you had been poured into by that coach versus just like made wrong for not doing something.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Now, now when he called me out in front of everybody, I'm gonna be honest with you, I was like, I would have preferred you know a one-on-one versus in front of everybody.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

I didn't know that part of it, but you were in front of everybody. He was like Yeah, get over here right now.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Okay, so don't get me wrong. At the age I was, that's probably the only way you could have got through.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Um But in a professional environment, it's better to pull someone inside and go.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

It is, but what it what what the the the reason why um most people, the majority of people, aren't doing things wrong intentionally, right? Like a lot of times it's just a lack of an awareness. And for so many leaders, and especially uh for your rock stars, you know, so many of them, their love, taking care of their uh patients, taking care of uh those who they're helping, uh all those things, you know, that matters a lot. Structure, alignment, people being on the same page, we have a tendency to take that for granted. And so I tell a lot of leaders, what you picture in your mind, and what and when you give an instruction to one of your members of your team, don't make the assumption that the picture you're describing is the picture they're seeing. Many times the pictures don't match. And so the importance of these little things, they may be unaware because you really didn't emphasize. I had one leader tell me, it was like, well, you know, at my front desk, or that we have an urgency for that. I said, Yeah, but you have this urgency and everybody's doing all this work, yet the very person who that the the person who has to submit it is sat on their desk for a whole day before they submitted it. So you were like, what were they doing? They were unaware of how urgent that thing is. That is a communication problem. That's not an attitude problem. You believe they have an attitude problem. No, you guys just aren't aligned. And you have to take the time to know this matters. If we're aligned properly, it frees rock stars to do what they do best. If they lack alignment, you end up spending that time you would be taking care of what you really enjoy and what really has the most impact on the client. Now fixing stuff that shouldn't have required your attention in the first place. It should have been something you aligned around early. This is why we huddle up in football. This is why we have uh this is why we have training camp. This is why people think training camp and huddles are for the purpose of just calling and play. No, huddles are for the purpose of seeing the same picture to make sure everybody's pictures match. We only execute because of alignment. We're not executing because of talent. The assumption is everybody has talent. You wouldn't be in the league if we didn't have talent. How do you organize that talent? You can organize it with alignment.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Amazing that word alignment. How so much about it is the vision, like you said, that's in my head is different than the vision in their head. I remember as an early business owner getting so frustrated with my front desk. And I wasn't hiring well to begin with. Like I wasn't, you know, this wasn't an NFL hiring perspective. I used to hire based on the fogged mirror rule. If they fog a mirror, I would I would so that was part of my problem. But you know, Eric, it was all me. Because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, I would sit there and tell people, like, hey, do this, and then walk away, and then get personally offended when they didn't execute. You know.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Well, we have it will because I I know about the mirror

Alignment Beats Raw Talent

SPEAKER_00 13:10

tests, man. And it and but it but it but it's also it it there's so many principles we know, but it just it still keeps going down to what Stephen Covey wrote about years ago in the seven habits of highly effective people, which is beginning with the end in mind. And he he, I remember one of the stories he talks about is he's walking his son around the yard and he says, Son, I need you to cut the yard. And he goes, Great, okay, I got it, Dad. He goes, No, son, this is what green and clean looks like. I want it green and I want it clean. And he said, and so he walked around, he says, Son, what does it look like right now? Green and clean. He says, Son, that's green and clean. If it doesn't look like this, it's not green and clean. So you don't have to ask me, you don't have to wonder, you don't have to guess. You just got a chance to see what better looks like. This is what it looks like. And I I I remind we all guilty of like even though I teach about it, train everybody, it's still it blows my mind how often. Um and it's not only miscommunicating, it's just not clear communication. How often I'm off with my team. And I'm like, oh, thank you for running. That's why the goal is to create a communication channel where we're constantly aligning our pictures. So with my team, I was like, you know, this is what I want done, and this is why I want it done. Uh and and so tell me what you when when I say this, tell me what you heard. Tell me what you see. I want to know what they picture. I don't know, I want, I don't want to just know what they heard. Because if our pictures don't match, they go off, do the work. I'm not happy with the work because it's not the picture I have in mind. But then they're upset because I don't value the effort they just spent doing the work. So now you have people wasted their energy on stuff that doesn't bring a return. I'm not happy with the outcome. And now we have to come together. So I don't earn a reward just effort when it's not what I wanted, but also it's important for them not to waste their effort on a bad pitcher. So I work really hard with my team, but I encourage uh uh leaders all around, is that challenge your people also to make sure they can tell you back what it is a pitcher, but also when they don't have clarity that they ask for it, that they don't just take it for granted, just because my boss said it, this is what I see. Uh not to go too long on this will, but the reason why I love uh professional sports so much, or especially professional football, because it's watched more than any other sport in the country, right? People always watch. But I say this often, this is not about football, but it is about how leadership and and and management and and organization works. Follow us here. The way that leadership or information flows back and forth in a game is different than what most people think. They assume the coach calls the play and the players go do it. That is not what's happening. The exchange of information going back and forth is so fluid. You have quarterbacks, uh, you have head coaches asking quarterback, tell me what you see. You have offensive coordinates asking quarterback, quarterback telling me quarterbacks asking the receiver, receiver telling the quarterback. Everybody is communicating. Why? Because it's the information. We're gonna work hard anyways, but can we work hard with the right information? So if you're gonna work hard, you want to work hard on the right stuff. To work hard on the wrong information, now we just got confusion. And so we're not losing because of the lack of talent, we're losing because of the lack of organization. And it's hard to be effective and confused at the same time. So it's so important when we gather. Are we on the same page? And it doesn't take long. You know, a huddle takes about 10 seconds, right? Right? Uh an early morning meeting before your day starts. Get on the same page, just take five minutes before the day starts. Come in five minutes early, get with your team. Hey, guys, this is what a good day looks like for us today. Let's go make it happen. Let's make sure we do the there you go. That's way easier than going a month, looking at your numbers, realizing your numbers ain't right, then trying to backtrack and understand why is that, and then going through this? No, it start ahead of time. Like this, I like to call it uh pre-success versus post-mortem, right? Like, can we set this up ahead of time to be successful? What are the few things we know matter most? And can we make sure they stay on the minds of our folks even before the day starts? And the better you get at that, it doesn't make it perfect, but it makes it a lot more productive.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yes, and that's where you get teams, I think, who are in the trenches together, who learn to trust each other because as they learn to feel valued, I think the biggest indication, not even talking to my audience about me, even still, Eric, is that

Pre-Success Meetings Over Post-Mortems

SPEAKER_01 18:00

when I start feeling like frustrated with somebody, it's usually a greater indication that I haven't set that pre-success in motion and I haven't like previewed it well enough. And sometimes it's because I don't know as an owner or a leader. And so it's easier, it's almost more like I think human to look at the other person and go, Well, I hired them for this role. Why aren't they executing? Do they not care? And then when they make mistakes that I would say would be obvious not to make, if I haven't previewed clean and green, like like Covey did, if I haven't shown them in that way, it comes back to me. And I think this is where the best leaders I know tend to stay relatively calm. Yes. Because when they realize that like they are showing a good pre-success view and the pages are getting lined up and then it doesn't execute, it's more about like, oh, they're that's where they make easier cuts in their company because it's like they're not even upset about it. It's like, hey, listen, you're not gonna be happy here because we're you're not even when you get the vision, you don't, and we trained you, you're still not executing, then it's time to let you go. But there's there's like there's none of this like running around complaining to their spouses. And again, I do sometimes complain to my spouse. I sometimes still have issues, but I've learned, I think, as I'm learning from you right now, Eric, it's more about me, it's way more about my ability to do pre-success than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

I Will, man, that is so I just love the way you articulate and made it so clear. It and that's where it starts with it, all of us as leaders. And when I say leaders, I'm not even talking about our titles, I'm just talking about in our our ability to influence others and those around. Everyone's a leader, everyone's a leader. So this this this issue around clarity works sideways up, down. It doesn't matter. It's just those who I gotta communicate. And the clarity that I want to give the folks I need to influence is also clarity I need for myself. So I'm not just talking to those right now about how you can be more clear or get greater clarity with the people you're leading, but it's also how you can get greater clarity for yourself. Some of us right now are working really hard on things that we're not really clear about, and so it's important to get that kind of information. You may find out sometimes somebody get a uh a general statement of you know, our our our you know, if it was whether it's a net promoter score or what we're getting feedback from our customers or what they're not happy with, or what we're man, it when that stuff is given to you in a very general way, yeah, that that's not real effective. And this is why we can remain calm. This is the other thing that I enjoyed about uh having great coaches in the NFL, the ones that I had, it's when they chose to be calm and when they got much more heated. I was fascinated by that will.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

I am too, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

It is it really is. So there'd be games where we're not playing well, or we may be behind, or we're not low, yeah, or we're uh and I'd be just blown away at how calm a couple of our coaches would be, how calm Homer would be, how calm Andy Ree would be, you know, who's in Kansas City now, like how calm they would be. Pete Carroll, how calm he would be. And then you turn around and the team's up by 20. And these coaches are irate and they're yelling and they're upset, and you would think, well, when the scoreboard's working in your favor, why are you being much more intense now? Why are you being so deliberate now? Because human nature is just built in. We usually get pretty complacent. The easier the easier it is to be good, the more difficult it is to be great. So we allow winning on the scoreboard to cause us to slow down, paying attention to details, paying to it's when now when we're down or we're losing or things are going well, now we get serious about it. No, because what takes care of the scoreboard, the scoreboard is a lagging indicator, it's not a leading indicator. So a scoreboard just represents what our habits are. So can we get the right habits? Can we get the right things in place, and then do it in a calm enough manner so we can clearly see it? Then use our energy and passion and enthusiasm in the right place, not in reality. Reacting to what's going on, but calm in responding to what's going on, so then we can get on the same page and make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Eric, this is mind-blowing because one of the concepts I've always tried to balance is this place as a leader between challenge and support. And energy is a way of communicating that, right? Like if we over-challenge, we overwhelm. If we over-support, we enable in a negative way. So we're always so it's interesting because when you talk about like being

Calm Coaches And The Scoreboard Trap

SPEAKER_01 22:25

calm, Andy Reid, like I've always been blown away, how he's always on the sidelines, just stoic, super chill all the time. It's interesting that you notice that when they're they're in that energy of like we're winning, and then people start making. I'm sure it's not every time that you guys were winning. I'm sure it was when you were winning and people got comfortable that they decided to get heated and they started to increase that challenge. This how do you feel that translates in into um a private practice, for example? Like when does the owner because I think I will say this, I will, I think our the biggest error we make is that we tend to over-enable. Like we never get hard enough in the way that like is necessary. Most, I think every industry is different. Healthcare providers are usually like, hey guys, honestly, you know, maybe we should show up on time. Yeah, yeah. And you know, so how do you communicate, how do you encourage your clients and people, especially in those spaces, to like know how to balance that energy and that intensity?

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad you say because I think it really matters in in terms of even when we use words like passion and intensity, uh, you know, it's very important that every leader be authentic. So we're not talking about putting on an error or you know, there's certain uh the aura of trying to be, oh, here we go. No, you stay in alignment with who you are. Um but what helps facilitate this is consistency. I'm a big believer that consensus consistency trumps intensity every time. So the feedback loop, the opportunities of alignment is not a one-time event, it's continuous. And so if it's a one-time event, then you got to put a whole lot of intensity in it, but it doesn't last, right? And so if you do this consistently, that's why I was talking about like you know, uh daily huddles or you know, weekly reviews. Hey, this is what we did. We had a great week last week, uh, or tough week last week. Let's learn what were some of our learnings from it. Just somehow or another, you reviewed it before you go into the next one. Hey, we get on the same bed. Many of the things I'm talking about are so simple, it's crazy, right? Um but these are the kind of things that allow us to stay aligned without these giant, uh, way I like to describe it, is is you know, these these giant uh variances where there's such a huge going, we go this way and then we come back down and we go way back up and go. It's it's almost like uh uh um we're reacting instead of responding. And so one of the things that is imperative, especially in the environment you guys are feedback is really important, but we can use facts, we don't have to water them down. Like, okay, here's where it's showing we need to improve. This is the evidence, this is right, and here's what we believe are the causes of it. We do need to do more of the causes that'll lead to the outcome we're going after. What happens sometimes when a and a leader is kind of nervous, it's like, you know what, I don't want to be too hard on them. Well, the bigger question I have to ask is what's the consequence of that?

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

So sometimes in my effort to protect the feeling of one, it's having a negative impact on so many others. Uh it it hurts the team. Uh I I look at that because and we talked about this even before I had the uh Will, even before I had a chance to speak to uh many of your peers and other entrepreneurs who are obviously they they love the practice, they love the service that they do. But I would say that they love who what the service they're providing probably more than just owning a business, if that makes any sense, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

You know what I'm saying? So I love the service even more so. But the reality is if we don't do accountability properly, accountability is not a negative word. Accountability just gives us a chance to identify where do we need to get a little better and make it clear. When we can do that with our people very directly without a whole lot of, it allows them to course correct faster. So I ask leaders this often do you people clearly know where their opportunity improved is? Or are they kind of guessing? Or if they have a one-on-one with you, you was like, hey, you know, here's an area I need you to improve, or here's an area that you've been working on, and then after you kind of let them know they need to improve, you say stuff like this, like, okay, I need you to, but you but I know you're working hard on it, so you know it's getting a little bit better. And so all of a sudden, you just what you just did was you have somebody walking away from you confused. Like, am I doing a good job or am I not? And I just tell leaders, you've earned the right, believe me, if you're already uncomfortable sometimes having a direct conversation, you're probably not gonna be too direct, anyways, right? So it's better that you remain uncomfortable to the to a point where that helps them get better. And you can tell them, I believe in you. All that stuff can still be there, but I need this to get better. This is the area I need you to improve. And then don't eat it in that. We're gonna revisit this to see how improvement is happening because the team needs you to do better, the practice needs you to do better. Your customers, your clients, your patients need you to be better. This is why I tell leaders all the time it got to be bigger than just my discomfort for having difficult conversations. I tell leaders all the time, that's selfish. That's you thinking about

Consistency Over Intensity In Feedback

SPEAKER_00 27:50

yourself. You're not thinking about them. You one person said, Well, I don't I care about my people, so I don't want to hurt their feelings. No, you just don't want to bring you the reasons their feelings are hurt. So it's still about you. No, it's that their feelings may be hurt temporarily, but it's gonna be hurt even more when you they find out later on that they haven't been meeting the standard and you never told them. Do you know how painful that is to find out later on that you don't believe I've been doing a good job, but because of your discomfort, you're unwilling to tell me? I tell leaders all the time, I this isn't about fairness. At the end of the day, you have a you you know you have the right to do whatever you want as a leader. You have the right to tell them or not. But in your leadership, and especially servant leadership, your rights go down and your responsibilities go up. You are responsible with telling your people the truth, even if it's uncomfortable for you. That's kind of like the price of leadership.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Amen. And it's so funny that it's disguised as kindness when there's nothing more kind. You know, I mean, in a very small way, when I've had something hanging out of my nose, it's my closest friend's like, dude, do this. You know what I mean? It's not, it's not the person who let me sit through the dinner. And and like, dude, I will tell you, Eric, this is such a great way of discussing this because so many leaders they have this idea of what kindness looks like. And I think what your frame is perfect. The frame of like, hey, maybe, and I used to say this in my own way, like as I got more courageous.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

To finally be like, it's it takes courage. I think the problem is that like number one, I don't think most of us have it modeled well, you know. Like, I think we get we get raised in homes where it's either my way or the highway or super enabled, and so we don't know how we think of confrontation or accountability, better stated, as this like intense negative thing. Like, but to your point, if you're consistent with it, you don't have to be as intense because because you you're doing it all the time. Like, hey, John, I saw this. This is what we need to see. And if they're struggling, it's like, hey, John, for the sake of the company, for the sake of your team, for the sake of your clients, and for the sake of you, this impacts other people when you don't run fast as hard as you can in every play. Here's the ripple effects of this. I I believe in you, you you can do it. You can do it. Yeah, it's very different than, but I know you're working hard.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Well, you just said it because what we want to challenge our people with, which was what they want at their core, you see greater potential in me than maybe I'm showing, coach me to it, challenge me to it. And then after you say, I know you can do it, and then let me know what you need. Yeah, what do you need? What do you need from me? Like it so they know they're not alone, but I am holding to you to a standard that I know you can do. And and if I got you in a position or in something that you I know you can't do, but I need you to do, that's a different conversation. Now that's the now that's a leadership conversation that's a move that you've been holding out on. You need to have some courage to make that change, right? Because that's unfair as well, as a leader, to keep someone in a position that they're incapable of doing and the negative impact that it has on everybody else. But what you just got through describing, that is it. I am I believe enough in you. Now, here's the one thing that is I I hope is helpful for for your rock stars, and many of them are doing this already. We don't, but it's just sometimes it's a reminder of because many times it's not things that we need to be to learn that's brand new. We just got to be reminded, and you guys are so busy, you're so busy that what you're battling against is all the things that can distract you from doing these things, right? So it's not an issue that I don't know these things, it's there's enough work and there's enough things that can grab my attention that this kind of stuff I don't get to. So I should have had this conversation with you two weeks ago. It's now two weeks later or three weeks later. Now the circumstance that would have had a coaching moment, I missed. And so now when I bring it up, it do you see what I'm saying? This is what makes it challenging. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, this is what makes it challenge. But there's a challenge that I was I was fortunate enough to have a mentor of mine who would uh who trained me in this, and he would say it over and over. But I believe it's so true for leaders. Our people want to know at a minimum these two things from us, and it makes all the difference. They want to know these two things, they want to know what do we want from them, and they also want to know what we want for them. Now, we they may never say the second one, they may never say it out loud, but everything. I

Accountability As Real Kindness

SPEAKER_00 32:30

want to know that my leader, whoever, there's something that they want for me. And when I can trust that what they want for me is even greater than they want from me, they get permission to even ask more from me because I'm aware, I'm not questioning their motive. What happens sometimes in some environments is we ask a lot. You have somebody say says, you know, I ask a lot from my folks, and they just feel like I, you know, I all I am is a taskmaster. I just I'm just well, that's because they're not aware of what you want for them. They know what you you want from them, but they're not aware of what you want for them. And so that's what you need to make sure they have. But in some environments, and might be some cases with some of your rock stars, it's almost the opposite. Okay. Um, you know, this is what I want for you. I want you to be happy, I want you to feel good, I want you to feel connected. We use words like culture as if culture is dictated by how happy everybody is. Let me make it perfectly clear to everyone listening. Culture is not dictated by by by what everybody wants. Culture is dictated by what's tolerated. And I'm telling you, if you if you tolerate a low standard or people not need to come through, the negative effect it has on everybody because everybody knows the truth.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

And A-players are the ones who want to know, like they they're so capable. A-players are super who's, according to Dr. Benjamin Hardy. Like, these people, they are so committed to wanting a bigger impact for the world, they are craving that for you to say, here's what I want from from you. Yep. I think, I think in healthcare, it is so much what you just said, Eric, you hit it right on the head. And I think there's some of I've heard of win-win agreements and all that, but I've never heard it articulated that clearly for me. Where it's like, if someone sat down with me and said, Hey, Will, this is what I want from you, and this is what I want for you. And in my mind, that's the clearest way for me to go, yeah, this is working or not. That's for alignment. It's not even emotional. It's like, yeah, that works or no, it doesn't. And if it does work and the company is exchanging in abundance, and I feel like I'm getting a better deal out of it. If if I'm an A-player band, I'm gonna show up that next day, like, I'm gonna give you as much and and I'm gonna I'm gonna show you how much more I can give. And for an owner, what a great tool to feel like, yeah, they're seeing this transactionally or they're seeing this transformationally. There we go. I just love how you're saying that because for me, I'm gonna incorporate that in my lingo in every review.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Here's what I want from you, here's what I want more from you, here's what I want less from you.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

And then what here's what I want for you. You know, for you, and and what am I missing?

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Yeah, Will, the reason why it's so cool too, it uh uh it's helpful, but it frames it for us as leaders. Now, what I'm asking from them, there's so many connections between what I'm asking from you to what I want for you, and what they've also said. Because when I tell them what I want for them, you know what I'm also hearing from them? I get to ask, tell me more of what you want for yourself. Tell me what it is that look at the look at what it gets to facilitate, look at the conversation. This isn't, I'm not following his checklist, I'm like, hey man, this is what I want for you, but you tell me what you want for yourself, and I'm hearing it, I'm listening to it. Then all of a sudden, when I'm asking more from you and when I'm saying I want from you, I know that's connected to something that's driving you. You've told me this is what you want for yourself, I want that for you, but then we need the organization, needs this from you, and this is how it leads to what we just got to do to God. There's a there's a symbiotic relationship between these two things. And as a leader, it's so helpful when you have a chance to know your folks like that. You have inside and for so I'm not just giving over tasks. I'm not just for some, it's gonna be great. For there's a rock star right now that just based on what we are talking about right now, Will, they have some they have some A players on their team who've been looking for development opportunities, looking for greater room to display what they can do than they better. And and when people aren't clear of what of what their leader wants for them, and the leader's not clear about what the people want for themselves, many times they don't know how to assign or give out tasks or give out greater responsibilities. Some of you right now out there, it's time for you to let some things go. The only way some of your A players actually grow, or some of your players become A players that you may not even know, is when they're given levels of responsibility, when they're given an opportunity to really step up. You'll be amazed. Some people you think aren't bought in, they just have nothing to do. Like they're they're not challenged. They're not challenged, man. That that they just need to know. Like, there's more I can do. I'm gonna let you do it. Now you're gonna hold them accountable. There's a standard, but listen, look at the difference of conversations you guys are gonna have. Like you're gonna have higher level conversations just because they're seeing it so differently.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

And they're transforming the team's lives. When I sold my practice, I will tell you, Eric, the biggest surprise of my life was that my legacy wasn't the money. It definitely wasn't the patient care. It was the team that came together to transform that. That's it's when I talk to other business owners who have sold their practices in and out of healthcare, it's like a bunch of old men talking about their kids. It's like, you know what my chief of operations is

What We Want From You

SPEAKER_01 38:10

doing now? She started her own company. And it's this this discussion that you are so simply breaking down is helping me also realize that when we talk with our people in this way, when you I love the thing you said about, you know, what is it you want for yourself? Because what I'm willing to bet is that most people don't know. They they or though, and so you get to serve as a coach and go, well, listen, here's some opportunities that I can see that would help the company. Do any of those resonate? Or like big picture, do you want to get on sabbatical? Do you want to travel the world? Do you want to like you know, own a cabin in the woods when a when a business leader or any leader with their kids, even by the way, has that level of discussion and helps open what's possible to them, they will stay in your company forever because you have given them a gift that no other leader even knows that they're capable of giving, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Well, I I I I know we have we're both like if we were together, we'd be high-fiving and jumping up and down. Totally, totally. But the reason why this uh moved my heart so much is in and and I'm really speaking to all the rock stars out there who are listening, because many of them, this is their heart. It's just how to execute it. Like they if you really pulled away their desire. Um I I had a mentor who say this to me often, he says, Eric, there's nothing, there's only a couple things greater than wearing a coat that feels like success, right? You can look at you feel like you're dressed in success. And when he said a coat, he's talking about a covering, not the actual clothes. He says, When you can look back and say you've been successful, he goes, but that compels in comparison to when you can look out to those you've been able to impact and see them just clothed, cloaked in success. Okay. And because you saw it in them and now they're living it. Man, there's no great it's it's it's the reason why for those who are, you know, you may have some rock stars who at an age where many of them are younger, but if it may be at an age of the no greater joy than a grandparent just watching their grandkids play, right? There's just nothing, like there's nothing that can match that. And what I'm saying now is being a leader who I want my people to know what I want for you is even greater what they don't want from you, but I want a lot from you, okay? But part of that process is helping them uh determine what they want for themselves because the majority of people who the majority of people don't get what they want for themselves because they've never decided on what that is. They've never really been challenged to ask for it to think of it. Now, this is what's important. I hope all the leaders are hearing me here. What we're not creating in our practices is a parental type relationship with the people we lead. Okay, this is not a paternal type dynamic. This isn't, I'm not figuring out, I determine what I want for you, I determine what I no. When I say what I want for you includes you determining what you want for yourselves, and we align that. And because personal responsibility, responsibility itself, is a it's a fundamental, 100% responsibility, it's a fundamental pillar. That's the foundation of all the success you guys have been able to have and everybody who I'm talking about. And the word responsibility means, like when I talk about potential being released, it's only released when responsibility is given. The word responsibility means the ability to properly respond, not react, but respond. And people have it within them. If you don't give me room to respond to challenges, if you don't give me room, if you don't ask more of me that requires more, I never discover what was actually in me. So I have a leader that not only wants something for me, I have a leader that not only helps me determine what I want for myself, but I also have a leader who asks even greater things of me. And as a result, I have no other choice but to grow. And what matters the most to us, yeah, paycheck and all that stuff, money goes, but growth and the leader who helped me grow will, I'm telling you, man, they'll get better.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

You know, Tony Robbins says that he talks about this idea that like happiness is a derivative of gratitude, growth, and giving. And when we grow our people, they can give more to the world. That's it. And they'll always identify us, even though we are just a product of the greats before us, they will always identify us, and we get the very sacred role in their hearts as the man or woman who stood in confidently and courageously, who is willing to tell them you could be better, you can be more, and here's how why you're so important. I love this conversation. Eric, I will say this has done more for me than anyone else. What you have said has been more transformative for me as a leader than anything else. I can't thank you enough for being a part of this show. And I mean this humbly. If you ever want me to be a part of anything that you're ever doing, I am in. You need me on, I mean, I'm going on air to say this because my audience knows I'm authentic on this stuff. Like, dude, if you need, I have never said this before, but if I can, if I can be a part

Culture Is What You Tolerate

SPEAKER_01 43:20

of your journey in any way, please let me know. You are just anyway. Let's let's do this. Let's get into rapid fire. Let's do rapid fire. Let's close this thing with rapid fire. Okay, so first and foremost, what is one thing that you see as as the world of AI is taking over? Yes. What is one tool that you see that you could can really empower uh leaders that you have seen or you're excited about?

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Okay, so in in the world of AI, I will be specific. I'm dealing with a I'm dealing a lot with that right now. Like many of my trips that I was telling you that I've been taking globally uh from trend AI to uh uh that that's a company, right? To Salonis, who everything they do is around this area to IBM and their Executives and I so I've been talking. My my take to every leader who's listening personally, individually, find ways to allow AI to be a thought partner with you. So not not not just to write emails for you, even though that's great, not just to you know, you can come up with new systems, but to really think with you. I I there are so many times where like the growth it can't substitute the conversation you and I are having right now, Will, but there are times I'm alone and I'm thinking, I'm like, golly, this is a question. I wonder, and then I just jump on whether it's Claude or Chat uh Chat GPT or one of the other ones, and I just sit there and I go, think with me. This is how that and then it asks a clarifying question, and I ask it's not what it tells me to do, never, it just brings up other questions and thoughts and everything that allows me to get all these thoughts together. I know we got some rock stars out there right now. If if we can unpack everything that's in our brains, it it would almost cause people to go crazy, right? Like it's so it's nice to have something that's not judging me or or describing, it's just thinking with me. Um, and that is one way that I always encourage people to use uh to to begin using AI. It it the reality is, and I'm not just you know, we gotta all work and do it, but almost everything works like this. Almost all change in technology kind of goes through four stages. And I'd say it real quick, Will, is it's the first stage, which is, you know, uh I don't have no need for it. And the second stage is I can see how others use it. The third stage is oh, I can see how I can use it occasionally, and we're not long before how did we ever get along without it? And I I and I just tell people all that's happening is just happening to us faster. So that that range I just got through describing is just happening faster than it's ever happened before. And this is why I tell people to play around with it with yourself, like play around with it individually. The thing that the AI has helped me the most with recently is I was traveling so much. Well, and finally I got to a point where I was like, look, you know, my I am getting on my wife's last nerve.

unknown 46:23

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Because you're gone. I'm gone. I'm not I'm not knowing how to I come back in the atmosphere the wrong way, right? Like I'm not coming back, and and so it came up with some great, I said, man, how do I I'm this is the schedule I have. I can't, man, give me some ideas of what I can do that, and it started to ask me questions, go back, like you know, me and my wife were having dinners. Wow. Well, on FaceTime, she had put up the screen here, I put up the screen here, we're eating together, we're driving. It's like a one-on-one date.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Like, I'm But you're in Spain. You're in Germany.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Yeah, I'm in I'm in I'm in Germany, and she's at home and we're doing right, and we're just uh what do you drink? I mean I but those ideas came from, you know, I talked about it, it came from that. So anyhow, I didn't mean to go on to dive.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

No, this was such a great answer because ultimately at the end of the day, you gave me such a brilliant anyway. You just fed something to me that I'm gonna hold on to privately for now because I think what you just said is is uh the thought. I the thought partner concept is massive.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Um, what is a book that you would recommend that you've recently read and enjoyed? What's a book that you would recommend to people if they're trying to increase their capabilities as leaders?

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Okay, um I it's it's not one that I I've recently read, it's one that I keep going back to over and over and over and over again. Now, there's others books similar to it, but it's by Richard Coke, who's a he and and it and it's and it's not as famous, you know, we're not talking with Simon Sinek, we're not talking about Richard Coke, he's but it's called 8020 thinking.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

What's it called again?

SPEAKER_00 47:58

80-20 thinking.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Yeah, and so we also have the 8020 rule, we're all that, but the reason I'm such a fan of it is following following somebody who can completely committed to living by the 80-20 rule, which is 20% of input uh has eight, you know, uh has a disproportional impact on 80% of the outputs. And knowing what that 20% is and going through the process is a game changer.

AI As A Thought Partner

SPEAKER_00 48:25

And I live for that because I want to know in all areas what's the 20% that I do that's responsible for 80% of my wife's happiness? Well, once I know what that is, why am I spending time on other stuff? Yeah, man when I know that's the real difference. I can buy all the gifts in the world for my wife, and it but I'm disappointed when I'm expecting her to be excited about the cost of it. No, there's an expensive gift I wrote I got for my wife right now, but I wrote a letter to a note on it on the receipt. I I don't know where the gift is, but I know where the receipt is, right? So she's still it's that kind of stuff. I used in a practical example, it's knowing that. It's knowing that, and I try to do that with the people I lead. I want to know them well enough to know what's the few things that matter most to them. There's a lot of things that matter, but not everything is imperative. And because we don't have a lot of time well, I don't have a lot of time to spend on things that don't produce a return. So in relationships, in the other, I understand in business and order, what's the 20%, but in relationships, how do I use that kind of thinking to have even greater impact on those who I have relationships with?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Powerful, powerful. Um, Eric, next question. What who is someone in your your family, like uh in your in your ancestry? Yeah. It can be a parent, it can be a grandparent. Who, when you think about your ancestry, who is someone in that line that has had a significant impact on you and why?

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Man, that's a great one. Um I've had several, but I would actually say uh looking around it. I I would say my my father. Uh and and I now I I my biologic father and my stepfather, but uh, I would talk about my stepfather who raised me. And and and not everything was peaches and cream, and not everything important, but his way of thinking had such a tremendous impact on me. And his ability to differentiate between not just what mattered, what didn't, I would it's more nuanced than that. I would say his impact, his ability to differentiate between what was important and what was imperative. That's a much more nuanced dynamic. And so, because of his role, some people may be listening, even when I keynote, I tell people all the time, you may be able to tell, but you know, my father was an old retired Baptist preacher. Based on my energy level, you probably be able to tell a little bit. I love it. Totally. It was just he lived by certain principles, not only just spiritual, but in practicality. He lived by certain principles and he just wouldn't move off of them. So he was the kind who was like he would tell me years ago he's his son. The key is from a financial standpoint, he will always say, Son, you plant good, you plant good seeds, you grow trees, you live off the fruit. And I and anytime I would go to him and ask for something, or one time I went to him ask for money, and he would say stuff like this. He goes, son, he goes, here's the problem, son. The reason you think you have a money problem. I was like, I do. He says, Nah, you got a wisdom problem, son. And if I give you money, you're gonna be back because you ain't solved the wisdom problem. So I want to see if you're about the wisdom. If you get the wisdom, the money will fall. I mean, it's stuff like that. And he would not back off of it well. Like, he never worried. I was like, but if I don't get this done, dad, if I don't get this done by Monday, what's gonna happen? He'll look at me and says, it'll be Tuesday. But I'll tell you that, and now he was my father was significantly older, right? Like when when I he was 45 years older than me, right? So I mean, I don't know, even more than that. Uh um, uh, yeah, yeah, but 45 years, yeah, yeah, he was old, dude. Oh, oh God. But but the the reason why this stuff like moved me so much, Will, is because those kind of little things, he would allow me to experience the weight, the consequences of my choices, decisions, never to the point where you know it was life-threatening. But his concept of what was what can take me out or not was just so different. Like my mother be like, worried, oh, don't let that happen. He was like, No, that's exactly what needs to happen. Like, I I was allowed to err to the point where I felt the weight of decisions, and I was never

The 80/20 Rule For Leaders

SPEAKER_00 52:50

just bailed out. He never let it go too far, but he let me go far enough that I knew, you know, that I was gonna feel the weight of the responsibility of choice. Like he was gonna let me know that choices I owned. And I'm so grateful to him for that. Like, I there was no other way. I I tell leaders a funny running joke. I said, here's the difference. Like, if if I if I forgot my lunch at school, I'm not calling my dad. You know what I'm saying? Right, right, right. He was like, you'll be all right. And and and and but it's funny because if I call my mom, oh, how can you do it? Don't forget again. And here she comes driving up, bringing it me again.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Yeah, she's frustrated and put out, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

And she still brought it to me. My mom screaming, yelling at me, I need you to make your bed, I need you to start cleaning your room while making my bed. I'm sorry, that message. My father never, it never happened that way, brother. And so I learned early on, hey brother, either I gotta take responsibility of that or I'm gonna have to figure it out because he ain't coming to save me. Because he's like, he won't starve. He'd be all right, but I promise you this much, he'll never forget his lunch again.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Yeah, and the wisdom, he's he's there's an Andy Reed-esqueness around him, yeah. Like he's chill and letting the consequences follow, but he'll bring it to you too. He's like the wisdom thing, the with the education. You have a wisdom problem. That's that's it, man.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

That was my pop.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Last question, and what is one of my big passions is family history, Eric. Uh, every time we do a podcast, I'm always mindful of the fact that like you're you and I are serving the Rockstars now. The bigger audience that I care about is your descendants. So it's a family history thing. This is a family history thing with your daughters, you know, future grandkids. Yes, they're not gonna experience you younger than this right now. What would you want them? What would you want to tell them directly about what we talked about today and what you you feel about this this concept of developing people?

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Oh, is that everything that uh the only thing that lives on. This is why when I talk about potential, but the concept I

Ancestry Lessons And Legacy Thinking

SPEAKER_00 54:55

use is an acorn to an oak tree, an oak tree to a forest of oak trees. Because the reality is, you know, there's gonna be forests of oak trees that will be a result of the principles we're talking about right now. But I'm never gonna see it. Right? Like I I won't be, but there's but my my my children's children will be the benefit of it. So I was told another thing my father told me once, he says, son, too late comes far too soon. And he goes, So what you sow, what you see, if you can think far enough, so the business, the principles I talk about, the what I my my goal is, what I pour into my daughters, and it I I see through them, not just to them. So when I look at my girls and I know that one day when they're with the when they're married and they have their husbands and they have their kids and and they're what are the principles and and and the things that are timeless that I'm pouring into them. So that DNA flows, it's the reason why of all the things I've kept of my grandfather and and notes I get from ancestry, it's their journals I want. It's the book, it's the what they wrote and it's the the the money a go, the properties, even though it's great, but the information, the wisdom, the the what a lot, that's timeless, that's priceless. So that's why I journal everything. That's why I write all my but all the books behind me, I've read every one. But I don't give my books away because I write in the tabs. I write all through it. So any book you read, it's almost like a because I'm I take everything I read as a question and okay, how do I apply this? How do I use this, including all my mistakes? So I I tell my daughters, I tell the uh um the those who I mentor and disciple, because I still work with a uh not only do I do a lot of executive coaching, but I work with a lot of current athletes who are it because that's a tough transition going from a professional athlete to real life. Like it's a real tough transition, and it's not always done very well. Well, the majority of the time it's not, right? And so the amount of time I spend with them, but using mistakes as their their opportunity to grow versus using successes, right? We learn more, we have more in common with the mistakes we make than we do our successes, right? So but man, I love that question, Will. God, man, that is such a great question, Will. Appreciate that, bro. That really helps me.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Yeah, and it's one of those things too, Eric, where I just am so excited because you are um so so uniquely special. And I I that go giver nature of yours is one that I just hope your daughters will, I know your daughters and their descendants, and the descendants you won't ever meet are gonna see this and just recognize that they are connected. And yeah, man, I love that you're so transparent with your mistakes. When you got cut from the NFL, all I kept thinking about was getting last picked for every sport I ever. In a weird way, I felt connected to you in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

Oh, yeah, bro.

How To Connect With Eric

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Eric, how do people get a hold of you, man? People are gonna want to know more about you and what you do. How do they get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_00 58:00

A few different ways. On LinkedIn, it's just at uh at Eric Bulls. You know, I I look just like my my my photo on it. So you know it's me. So uh on LinkedIn is that. Uh on Instagram is at Eric Bulls underscore. I think underscores at the end of my last name. So Eric at Eric Bulls underscore. Uh and and you will see all kinds of short videos, short clips on kind of the subjects and things we're talking about right now. My goal is just to have as much impact on people's lives as possible. Uh, I think on Facebook is at Eric Bulls. Supposedly I'm on TikTok. I have no clue because I don't manage it. Um but uh but I love when people uh engage back and forth because my ultimate goal is like I say, is always just to coach train and inspire leaders all over the world, unleashing their potential and the best set of within them. And and that's what it's all about. And so thank you all. Thank you, rock stars, thank you, Will. This has been such a wonderful honor today. This has been awesome.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

My mine as well, and just so grateful. And and guys, if for my friends of you out there who are who are you know who you are, who have more than 20 providers, please go to thegamechangersinc.com to learn about how Eric can serve your company. He's um, anyway, I give my highest recommendation to this man who was the keynote speaker of PPS and is someone who has inspired me personally in a way that has not happened elsewhere. So, Rockstars, thank you so much for tuning in today's episode. As always, this is Will Humphries reminding you to lead with love and never give up. Until next time.